Another take on the "nice guy" conundrum

[vvvexation]

A comment (and addendum) I posted elsewhere--fortunately not a propos of anything in my life at the moment, but I've been chewing on it for a while:

Dan Savage had some scathing things to say once to a disabled guy who wrote in complaining that he couldn't get chicks--mainly because, as Dan pointed out, he was only looking for "hot" chicks and didn't seem to have considered dating disabled women for a moment. I've since been convinced that what all those guys who complain that women won't date them because they're "too nice" really mean is that beautiful, bitchy women won't date them. Maybe if they actually went looking for nice girls--and bothered to include shy girls, plain girls, and nerdy girls in that pool--they'd have better luck finding a few who genuinely like nice guys.

(Okay, so I have known some genuinely nice guys who can't seem to get dates. In fact, that description fits a fair number of my closest friends. But you know what? Absolutely none of them, to my knowledge, have trouble getting dates because they're too nice. Some of them have self-confidence issues, and some of them are just nerds surrounded by too few nerd-loving women, but niceness is definitely not what holds them back.)

Comments

[tenacious-snail.livejournal.com]

I dated a nice guy. Part of being "nice" was that he was afraid to express an opinion or tell me his feelings.

I don't much give a damn about how "nice" someone is. I care about how well they communicate, and I notice that it is usually brains that get my motor running.

And, fwiw, the guys that I am dating include one I unambiguously pursued and two that I think were fairly mutual. (but I don't think anyone ever thought I was the girly sort, and despite having a dance card that makes me feel like a HBB, I hardly think I'm what is conventionally thought of as a HBB).

[lintqueen.livejournal.com]

Part of being "nice" was that he was afraid to express an opinion or tell me his feelings.

Oh goodness, you hit the nail on the head there. I went out with a terribly *nice* boy once who (in between telling me how *perfect* (1) I was -- this one a FIRST DATE -- wouldn't stand up for any opinion on anything without me stating one first, which, of course, he'd then agree with). Ack.

(1) And I, as a rule, don't want to be involved with anyone who thinks I'm "perfect" as clearly they're blind as a bat and near-psychotically deluded. ;-)

[tenacious-snail.livejournal.com]

*nod*

I don't want to be rejected, but I'd rather know that who I am isn't a good fit than to have someone pretend to be someone else because they think I'd like that person better.

[vvvexation.livejournal.com]

I don't much give a damn about how "nice" someone is.

Hmmm. I think I do, but I suspect I only care about certain aspects of "nice," like "generally sympathetic" and "not quick to anger." Other things that fall under that umbrella, I prefer at least low-average levels of, but not above-average. Then again, I'm also not sure how much of what I think of as niceness falls under communication skills, if communication skills include listening objectively and attempting to genuinely understand.

[tenacious-snail.livejournal.com]

the aforementioned "nice" guy was reading a book called something like "Don't Be Nice, Be Real".

I want someone who attempts to understand me (and often succeeds) not because they want to be nice or be seen as nice, but because they really DO.

I want to like someone for who they are, not to meet their need to be likeable. Does that make sense?

[vvvexation.livejournal.com]

Hmmm. It sounds like you're defining "nice guys" as "guys who make an effort to 'be nice' for the sake of being able to call themselves nice guys," whereas I meant the term to include guys who are just naturally nice. Going by your definition, I agree with you completely; going by my definition, I certainly prefer people to be genuine, but I also tend to like them better if one of the things they genuinely are is nice (for some vaguely defined value of the term).

[tenacious-snail.livejournal.com]

well, yeah. Absolutely I like guys who genuinely and naturally nice. And smart and geeky.