Another take on the "nice guy" conundrum

[vvvexation]

A comment (and addendum) I posted elsewhere--fortunately not a propos of anything in my life at the moment, but I've been chewing on it for a while:

Dan Savage had some scathing things to say once to a disabled guy who wrote in complaining that he couldn't get chicks--mainly because, as Dan pointed out, he was only looking for "hot" chicks and didn't seem to have considered dating disabled women for a moment. I've since been convinced that what all those guys who complain that women won't date them because they're "too nice" really mean is that beautiful, bitchy women won't date them. Maybe if they actually went looking for nice girls--and bothered to include shy girls, plain girls, and nerdy girls in that pool--they'd have better luck finding a few who genuinely like nice guys.

(Okay, so I have known some genuinely nice guys who can't seem to get dates. In fact, that description fits a fair number of my closest friends. But you know what? Absolutely none of them, to my knowledge, have trouble getting dates because they're too nice. Some of them have self-confidence issues, and some of them are just nerds surrounded by too few nerd-loving women, but niceness is definitely not what holds them back.)

Comments

[uncledark.livejournal.com]

As a former victim of NGS (Nice Guy Syndrome), I can see a couple of things to think about here...

"Nice" is sometimes conflated with "non-assertive." Guys who are not assertive tend to not ask, or to mistake subtle encouragements.

Also, the "I couldn't date you, you're too nice," or it's close equivalents, is often used as a gentle let-down in place of other, possibly harsher reasons. Telling someone he's too nice is easier than saying he's not attractive or too nerdy or whatever. Sort of like saying someone has a nice personality rather than saying that they are plain.

Taken together, this creates the illusion that nice = dateless, when I think the reality is more complex.

[ocicat.livejournal.com]

*clap clap*

I've ranted on this topic for years. You're actually the only other person I've seen discuss it.

When I was in college lots of my friends complained how they didn't get dates because they were "nice guys" and "all the girls go for jerks". When they said "all the girls" they really meant all the hot women who wore provocative clothing. They would never consider dating the shy girl in the corner. The non-flashy girl. The nice girl. They were always fixated on a handful of women who were the center of lots of other guys attention as well.

The other thing being a "nice guy" who doesn't get dates means, is having a low self confidence, which is rarely attractive. Particularly to the flashy girls. And usually they present no interesting personality. They're just nice, and kind of dull. Women don't want jerks, but most do want someone exciting. So do guys.

[vvvexation.livejournal.com]

Y'know, revisiting this topic has just made something crystallize in my mind that I think you came among the closest to expressing: Those of us who do like nice guys still don't want guys who aren't anything besides nice. Niceness might be a necessary condition, but isn't a sufficient one--and if a guy's defining characteristic is that he's "nice," that's likely to mean that he isn't anything much besides.

[ratontheroad.livejournal.com]

I believe uncledark has touched on something here when he mentioned "non-assertive." For some reason, I think there is an burden on the man to be assertive to a degree. I know I am now making claims with nothing but anecdotal evidence, however, in my experience, men are usually the ones trying to "pick up" or "come on to" women. There have, of course, been many notable exceptions, but that happens when I try to describe an ill-defined phenomenon with broad stereotypes on the internet,

Maybe it goes down to schema: we learn things from watching, and we learn how to date by watching movies and television, and mostly from people older than ourselves. Regardless, we seem to fall into the trap that a guy is expected to make the first move, and women are supposed to attract a man.

I'm not making value judgements on this, just saying that it happens. If I'm right, it's probably a problem because the situation encourages aggressiveness and sexism (the schema is very close to competing for a resource, and I can safely say that human beings should not be treated as such) and screws with our ability to relate to each other. The "nice guy" is often a person who is too respectful of space and boundaries to take a chance at an unwanted advance... he's not going to attempt to assert his presence on a female. Which get's into a whole other slew of moral dilemnas, because if that's the schema going on in the Nice Guy's head, he's kind of bought into the "women as resources" concept.

[nicked-metal.livejournal.com]

The "nice guy" is often a person who is too respectful of space and boundaries to take a chance at an unwanted advance... he's not going to attempt to assert his presence on a female. Which get's into a whole other slew of moral dilemnas, because if that's the schema going on in the Nice Guy's head, he's kind of bought into the "women as resources" concept.

Alternatively, the over-respect for space and boundaries originates from buying into "males must stop being evil oppressors" that (thankfully) is getting a lot less play these days.

[ratontheroad.livejournal.com]

I don't buy into the "evil oppressor" idea, and I would agree there are many Nice Guys (tm) that do, which leads to them giving females a wide berth and probably not selling themselves as well as they could.

However...

Recent discussions I've had both on-line and real life have made me aware how much boundaries get crossed, and I for one have been erring on the side of caution. Without placing blame, it's very easy for situations to get uncomfortable, and if you want to be friends first and get laid second, then this is something you really have to think about.

[nicked-metal.livejournal.com]

An excellent point. And we really don't like being uncomfortable - I think we're a little too concerned about discomfort, actually.

[fyfer.livejournal.com]

you have fifing in your head? I thought that I was the only one who had that problem. :)

(I have thoughts about the nice guy thing but I'm not feeling coherent enough to express them.)

[vvvexation.livejournal.com]

Movie score. I get random things in my head from all over, really.

Any more coherent now?

[vito-excalibur.livejournal.com]

I like ginmar's take on it: "nice guys" are not allowed to self-define. ;)

And that's all I have to say on this matter, because the last time I was in this conversation, a few days later someone killed himself, and it's made me kind of shy of discussing what can be a terribly painful topic with people I don't know well over the internet.

[luna-torquill.livejournal.com]

There is another angle on the "nice guy" thing. Even if their hygiene, self-confidence, and social skills are all up to par, sometimes a guy still can't get a date with a non-flashy girl. I have a couple of guys I can bring to mind for this.

Neither one particularly puts themselves forward, but they would both have no real problem saying "hey, wanna go out for coffee?" to a nice girl. I'm sure they have, in several cases. However, B once told me that he was the token guy organizing a PG-13 strip show benefiting a cause he's close to -- all the other people were female volunteers in the cause, most of them the ones who would be stripping down to lingerie. And I asked him, "Wow, how did you get such a tasty job?"

He said that one of the girls told him, "We wanted you to coordinate this, because we all feel safe around you."

He gives off a few effeminate vibes, but I know that he is not gay. (Neither is A, the other guy.) Yet both of them seem to radiate the "brotherly" vibe, the one that says you're safe with me, I won't grope you, and I understand your feelings... which means that attractive women who are used to being hassled will want them at their back because they won't have to worry about harassment from that direction, and the less classically-attractive "nice girls" feel like they can keep the guy as a confidant because he understands how they feel, almost treating him like one of the girls. Neither set considers the guy sexy, because he fits into this brotherly role. (Though I've harbored a quiet crush on B for years, as he's physically my type even if we're too similar to get along in a relationship. I'd ask him out if we were more compatible.)

A is clean and relatively fit, witty, very intelligent, has a good job, and while somewhat shy can still put himself forward when he wishes. He had one girlfriend in college, and I think he's had one or two dates in recent years, but that's all... and knowing him, he dislikes fast women. He's over thirty. All I can figure is that it's the "nice" vibe with a vengeance.

Lots of things working against sensitive guys. Not all of them are correctable by clue-stick.

[nicked-metal.livejournal.com]

Well said. I think that being 'safe' does take away sexual tension, because there's nothing to get tense about.

And, as a safe guy, I find myself in amazing paradoxical situations - women who alternate between behaving as if we were already in a relationship and telling me that they're "Not interested in me that way."

Ironically enough, the person I get the most "I'm attracted to you" type response from is the one with the looks of a model that wears cleavage-enhancing clothes all the time. Perhaps because I'm capable of a conversation in her presence without having to pretend that I'm not interested.

[vvvexation.livejournal.com]

Hmmm. I guess this isn't something I've experienced myself, as my brain works in exactly the opposite way: I'm more likely to be attracted to someone I feel comfortable with, and have a hard time grokking why comfortable would equal non-sexy.

Do they quite definitely consider him non-sexy, or have they just never happened to think of him that way? (I mean, would they maybe wake up and consider it if he asked, or has he asked?)

[luna-torquill.livejournal.com]

I can't see A asking that (definitely the non-kink, socially standard type), but I'll have to ask B next time I see him. He's much more forward.

My understanding is, however, that it is the "non-sexual" status that makes them safe, and to think of them as sexy would nullify the safety and put them at the bottom of the "all other men" pile. I've definitely found myself on the female end of this equation from time to time, and knowing that they were interested in a sexual relationship would make me retreat, perhaps even feel betrayed. Like they had just laid quiet long enough to lure me in with the brotherly feel.

I'll have to think about your question as it relates to me -- the answer is not clear. It may be both... if you have brothers, you might understand the perception. As in, you don't even think about it, and if someone else says his butt is sexy, you would blink, try to wrap your brain around it, and discard the idea. It's not that being comfortable with someone makes them less sexy -- it's that the "safe" guy is automatically sexless. This might be because they make absolutely no indication of interest, being uncomfortable with the flirtation game or having been rejected one too many times in the past. Or it might be because the woman needs them to be someone who is not stereotypically male, because she feels threatened or rejected by the male half of the dating pool.

It means they tend to have more female friends, but it also makes them progressively less likely to be seen as dating material by any of them. A paradox.

[vvvexation.livejournal.com]

Huh. I have no brothers and don't think I've ever had that "automatically-sexless" thing happen, but I guess I can begin to see how it would. I'm still not at all familiar with the sense of feeling threatened by the knowledge that someone wants to be more than friends, though, possibly because in all the times I've had a friend who wanted to be more, they've never gone about it in a threatening way. Sometimes I felt guilty because I couldn't give them what they wanted, but I never felt like they were pushing me. And the feeling of betrayal I really don't grok--after all, I've had a lot of friendships start because one of us had a crush on the other, and that doesn't seem deceptive to me, because it wasn't like we were pretending to want each other's friendship--we genuinely did want it, whether or not a romantic relationship also happened. It seems like the "betrayed" feeling would have to arise from a "you're either friends or you're sexually interested in each other, and you can't be both" paradigm, which is very foreign to me, and even more so to some people I know who will only date people they've been friends with for a while first.

[luna-torquill.livejournal.com]

I think the point to be made is that not every guy has this problem -- not even every "nice" guy. It is a particular subset of "nice" guys. Maybe you've just never run into a "safe" guy... or else you don't have the pigeonhole for them. I think a lot of women do.

I never date guys without being friends and comfortable with them first (those are my trust issues there). Some of them I am only attracted to once I really relax around them. But there are still the few that I pick up the "safe" vibe from, whether or not that makes them sexless to me now. Most of the time I am not attracted for other reasons, but I can still point them out in a crowd.

As for the "betrayed" thing -- it comes from having a relationship free of the stresses of sexual tension (and believe me, for most people it is stressful) suddenly shattered by the revelation that he's really been looking you over, just like any other male. It's like discovering that the nurse who's helping you undress has been checking you out. As someone to whom sex has always been at least mildly anxiety-inducing, having that one person who will never even hint at sex is a great relief. Having them turn into just another man with his mind on sex (even if it is romantic and friendly) is worse than if they had never been safe at all.

98% of the men I encounter do not fit in this category. 85% of geeks don't. But for the rest, no matter how many women they become friends and comfortable with, they never get beyond that point, and it's not for lack of interest. Next time we're both in a large group of geeks (not at a sex party, that skews things), prod me and I'll see whether I can spot one for you.

[vvvexation.livejournal.com]

Maybe you've just never run into a "safe" guy... or else you don't have the pigeonhole for them. I think a lot of women do.

Actually, now that I think about it, I do know one or two. It's just that I'm pretty sure that's not the reason I'm not attracted to them.

It's like discovering that the nurse who's helping you undress has been checking you out.

Not really, because presumably in your friendships you don't feel sexually vulnerable in the way you do when someone's undressing you.

As someone to whom sex has always been at least mildly anxiety-inducing, having that one person who will never even hint at sex is a great relief. Having them turn into just another man with his mind on sex (even if it is romantic and friendly) is worse than if they had never been safe at all.

Okay, I can see how that would happen if either a) you knew or suspected that the guy in question would be disappointed by your rejection and always kind of be thinking of it afterward and wishing you'd said yes and perhaps actively hoping you still might (which, granted, would be true of a lot of guys--I just don't know that many of them these days) or b) the idea of sex in general was scary. That might indeed be more common than I'd figured, but in the first case it still probably boils down to self-esteem issues on the guy's part, I suspect.

[wispfox.livejournal.com]

(Okay, so I have known some genuinely nice guys who can't seem to get dates. In fact, that description fits a fair number of my closest friends. But you know what? Absolutely none of them, to my knowledge, have trouble getting dates because they're too nice. Some of them have self-confidence issues, and some of them are just nerds surrounded by too few nerd-loving women, but niceness is definitely not what holds them back.)

Yes, yes, yes, yes!

Mostly, I run into the self-confidence issues ones, but yes!

[snowy-owlet.livejournal.com]

Preach it!

[tenacious-snail.livejournal.com]

I dated a nice guy. Part of being "nice" was that he was afraid to express an opinion or tell me his feelings.

I don't much give a damn about how "nice" someone is. I care about how well they communicate, and I notice that it is usually brains that get my motor running.

And, fwiw, the guys that I am dating include one I unambiguously pursued and two that I think were fairly mutual. (but I don't think anyone ever thought I was the girly sort, and despite having a dance card that makes me feel like a HBB, I hardly think I'm what is conventionally thought of as a HBB).

[lintqueen.livejournal.com]

Part of being "nice" was that he was afraid to express an opinion or tell me his feelings.

Oh goodness, you hit the nail on the head there. I went out with a terribly *nice* boy once who (in between telling me how *perfect* (1) I was -- this one a FIRST DATE -- wouldn't stand up for any opinion on anything without me stating one first, which, of course, he'd then agree with). Ack.

(1) And I, as a rule, don't want to be involved with anyone who thinks I'm "perfect" as clearly they're blind as a bat and near-psychotically deluded. ;-)

[tenacious-snail.livejournal.com]

*nod*

I don't want to be rejected, but I'd rather know that who I am isn't a good fit than to have someone pretend to be someone else because they think I'd like that person better.

[vvvexation.livejournal.com]

I don't much give a damn about how "nice" someone is.

Hmmm. I think I do, but I suspect I only care about certain aspects of "nice," like "generally sympathetic" and "not quick to anger." Other things that fall under that umbrella, I prefer at least low-average levels of, but not above-average. Then again, I'm also not sure how much of what I think of as niceness falls under communication skills, if communication skills include listening objectively and attempting to genuinely understand.

[tenacious-snail.livejournal.com]

the aforementioned "nice" guy was reading a book called something like "Don't Be Nice, Be Real".

I want someone who attempts to understand me (and often succeeds) not because they want to be nice or be seen as nice, but because they really DO.

I want to like someone for who they are, not to meet their need to be likeable. Does that make sense?

[vvvexation.livejournal.com]

Hmmm. It sounds like you're defining "nice guys" as "guys who make an effort to 'be nice' for the sake of being able to call themselves nice guys," whereas I meant the term to include guys who are just naturally nice. Going by your definition, I agree with you completely; going by my definition, I certainly prefer people to be genuine, but I also tend to like them better if one of the things they genuinely are is nice (for some vaguely defined value of the term).

[tenacious-snail.livejournal.com]

well, yeah. Absolutely I like guys who genuinely and naturally nice. And smart and geeky.

[catamorphism.livejournal.com]

Okay, so I have known some genuinely nice guys who can't seem to get dates. In fact, that description fits a fair number of my closest friends. But you know what? Absolutely none of them, to my knowledge, have trouble getting dates because they're too nice.

I know one or two people who really need to get this tattooed in reverse lettering on their foreheads. In particular, one person I'm thinking of who rants and raves about how women don't want nice guys, when the real issue is his lack of confidence and negative attitude, and the bitterness about how all women make horrible choices of partner (because they don't choose him) really doesn't help his image...

[hitchhiker.livejournal.com]

That's one thing I've always been glad of, actually - I may not have had any dates, but I never deluded myself as to why, and thus didn't feel sorry for myself. I mean, yeah, I was mildly bummed about being dateless, but it'd have been depressing to think that I was Not Wanted because I was Too Nice.

[secretagentmoof]

I have problems getting dates (hell, I haven't been laid in about a year), but I know damn well that's because of two things:

• I'm real picky - I want to actually like said people.
  
• Few of the people I'd want to date/snog/etc live in the area, and it's just too draining for me to travel over about twenty minutes.
  

(It doesn't help at all that I'm severely introverted, have interesting image and mental health issues, etc - but they're subsidiary.)

[vvvexation.livejournal.com]

and it's just too draining for me to travel over about twenty minutes

So this is why I never see you. *pout*

[secretagentmoof]

Yup, that's precisely why. Otherwise, I'd be buggin' you tons more. :)

[flwyd.livejournal.com]

A non-nice girl and a nice guy doesn't seem like a particularly good relationship option in general. It seems like there'd be a good chance the girl would use and then dump the guy, and then the complaint wouldn't be "why can't nice guys get dates?" but rather "why does everyone a nice guy dates suck?"

The solution, of course, is for life to be more like Amelie.

[vvvexation.livejournal.com]

and then the complaint wouldn't be "why can't nice guys get dates?" but rather "why does everyone a nice guy dates suck?"

And yet the reason would be the same. Funny, that.

[anghouedd.livejournal.com]

I've been thinking this for a while now, but you summed it up perfectly.

[vvvexation.livejournal.com]

Yow, either my journal or this post seems to've gotten around.

[ladytabitha.livejournal.com]

Popping in via deyo... friend moominmolly made a great point:

I think that people who complain that Chicks Only Dig Nice Guys are explicitly playing with this dual meaning -- they don't get attention because they're pushovers, i.e. "nice", and then they complain that women don't like them because they're friendly, i.e. "nice". It's a dirty trap, and I've always found it manipulative. This is what I was trying to clarify above, by saying that "nice" had many different components.

[vvvexation.livejournal.com]

Did she actually post this somewhere? I'd really like to see the context. I hadn't even thought about the "don't be that way, I'm just being friendly" definition of "nice"--if that's what she meant to refer to.

[moominmolly.livejournal.com]

I posted it in a locked thread that I can't really relate the details of. :) But the background is something like this: there are a lot of guys who complain that Chicks Never Date Nice Guys!, and use this as an excuse to trash women and make themselves feel better. (This is distinct from the class of ACTUALLY nice guys who can't get dates despite having broad selection criteria, etc.) I think that part of the problem is exactly what you describe -- they have no objectivity about their own desires, and they don't realize that they're unconsciously excluding nice girls. But there is a particularly poisonous breed of guy who complains this complaint, and what they mean is something like "Oh, come on, baby! I'd let you choose where we go to dinner! That makes me a nice guy! Why won't you fucking date ME, huh?" when what these guys are lacking is (a) a backbone and (b) manners and friendliness.

Sorry if that was incoherent. It's been a long day, already. But I think what I was getting at is something between what uncledark said above and what vito_excalibur said -- "nice" gets conflated with "non-assertive", and "nice guys" should never be allowed to self-define. :)