Another take on the "nice guy" conundrum

[vvvexation]

A comment (and addendum) I posted elsewhere--fortunately not a propos of anything in my life at the moment, but I've been chewing on it for a while:

Dan Savage had some scathing things to say once to a disabled guy who wrote in complaining that he couldn't get chicks--mainly because, as Dan pointed out, he was only looking for "hot" chicks and didn't seem to have considered dating disabled women for a moment. I've since been convinced that what all those guys who complain that women won't date them because they're "too nice" really mean is that beautiful, bitchy women won't date them. Maybe if they actually went looking for nice girls--and bothered to include shy girls, plain girls, and nerdy girls in that pool--they'd have better luck finding a few who genuinely like nice guys.

(Okay, so I have known some genuinely nice guys who can't seem to get dates. In fact, that description fits a fair number of my closest friends. But you know what? Absolutely none of them, to my knowledge, have trouble getting dates because they're too nice. Some of them have self-confidence issues, and some of them are just nerds surrounded by too few nerd-loving women, but niceness is definitely not what holds them back.)

Comments

[uncledark.livejournal.com]

As a former victim of NGS (Nice Guy Syndrome), I can see a couple of things to think about here...

"Nice" is sometimes conflated with "non-assertive." Guys who are not assertive tend to not ask, or to mistake subtle encouragements.

Also, the "I couldn't date you, you're too nice," or it's close equivalents, is often used as a gentle let-down in place of other, possibly harsher reasons. Telling someone he's too nice is easier than saying he's not attractive or too nerdy or whatever. Sort of like saying someone has a nice personality rather than saying that they are plain.

Taken together, this creates the illusion that nice = dateless, when I think the reality is more complex.

[ocicat.livejournal.com]

*clap clap*

I've ranted on this topic for years. You're actually the only other person I've seen discuss it.

When I was in college lots of my friends complained how they didn't get dates because they were "nice guys" and "all the girls go for jerks". When they said "all the girls" they really meant all the hot women who wore provocative clothing. They would never consider dating the shy girl in the corner. The non-flashy girl. The nice girl. They were always fixated on a handful of women who were the center of lots of other guys attention as well.

The other thing being a "nice guy" who doesn't get dates means, is having a low self confidence, which is rarely attractive. Particularly to the flashy girls. And usually they present no interesting personality. They're just nice, and kind of dull. Women don't want jerks, but most do want someone exciting. So do guys.

[ratontheroad.livejournal.com]

I believe uncledark has touched on something here when he mentioned "non-assertive." For some reason, I think there is an burden on the man to be assertive to a degree. I know I am now making claims with nothing but anecdotal evidence, however, in my experience, men are usually the ones trying to "pick up" or "come on to" women. There have, of course, been many notable exceptions, but that happens when I try to describe an ill-defined phenomenon with broad stereotypes on the internet,

Maybe it goes down to schema: we learn things from watching, and we learn how to date by watching movies and television, and mostly from people older than ourselves. Regardless, we seem to fall into the trap that a guy is expected to make the first move, and women are supposed to attract a man.

I'm not making value judgements on this, just saying that it happens. If I'm right, it's probably a problem because the situation encourages aggressiveness and sexism (the schema is very close to competing for a resource, and I can safely say that human beings should not be treated as such) and screws with our ability to relate to each other. The "nice guy" is often a person who is too respectful of space and boundaries to take a chance at an unwanted advance... he's not going to attempt to assert his presence on a female. Which get's into a whole other slew of moral dilemnas, because if that's the schema going on in the Nice Guy's head, he's kind of bought into the "women as resources" concept.

[fyfer.livejournal.com]

you have fifing in your head? I thought that I was the only one who had that problem. :)

(I have thoughts about the nice guy thing but I'm not feeling coherent enough to express them.)

[vito-excalibur.livejournal.com]

I like ginmar's take on it: "nice guys" are not allowed to self-define. ;)

And that's all I have to say on this matter, because the last time I was in this conversation, a few days later someone killed himself, and it's made me kind of shy of discussing what can be a terribly painful topic with people I don't know well over the internet.

[luna-torquill.livejournal.com]

There is another angle on the "nice guy" thing. Even if their hygiene, self-confidence, and social skills are all up to par, sometimes a guy still can't get a date with a non-flashy girl. I have a couple of guys I can bring to mind for this.

Neither one particularly puts themselves forward, but they would both have no real problem saying "hey, wanna go out for coffee?" to a nice girl. I'm sure they have, in several cases. However, B once told me that he was the token guy organizing a PG-13 strip show benefiting a cause he's close to -- all the other people were female volunteers in the cause, most of them the ones who would be stripping down to lingerie. And I asked him, "Wow, how did you get such a tasty job?"

He said that one of the girls told him, "We wanted you to coordinate this, because we all feel safe around you."

He gives off a few effeminate vibes, but I know that he is not gay. (Neither is A, the other guy.) Yet both of them seem to radiate the "brotherly" vibe, the one that says you're safe with me, I won't grope you, and I understand your feelings... which means that attractive women who are used to being hassled will want them at their back because they won't have to worry about harassment from that direction, and the less classically-attractive "nice girls" feel like they can keep the guy as a confidant because he understands how they feel, almost treating him like one of the girls. Neither set considers the guy sexy, because he fits into this brotherly role. (Though I've harbored a quiet crush on B for years, as he's physically my type even if we're too similar to get along in a relationship. I'd ask him out if we were more compatible.)

A is clean and relatively fit, witty, very intelligent, has a good job, and while somewhat shy can still put himself forward when he wishes. He had one girlfriend in college, and I think he's had one or two dates in recent years, but that's all... and knowing him, he dislikes fast women. He's over thirty. All I can figure is that it's the "nice" vibe with a vengeance.

Lots of things working against sensitive guys. Not all of them are correctable by clue-stick.

[wispfox.livejournal.com]

(Okay, so I have known some genuinely nice guys who can't seem to get dates. In fact, that description fits a fair number of my closest friends. But you know what? Absolutely none of them, to my knowledge, have trouble getting dates because they're too nice. Some of them have self-confidence issues, and some of them are just nerds surrounded by too few nerd-loving women, but niceness is definitely not what holds them back.)

Yes, yes, yes, yes!

Mostly, I run into the self-confidence issues ones, but yes!

[snowy-owlet.livejournal.com]

Preach it!

[tenacious-snail.livejournal.com]

I dated a nice guy. Part of being "nice" was that he was afraid to express an opinion or tell me his feelings.

I don't much give a damn about how "nice" someone is. I care about how well they communicate, and I notice that it is usually brains that get my motor running.

And, fwiw, the guys that I am dating include one I unambiguously pursued and two that I think were fairly mutual. (but I don't think anyone ever thought I was the girly sort, and despite having a dance card that makes me feel like a HBB, I hardly think I'm what is conventionally thought of as a HBB).

[catamorphism.livejournal.com]

Okay, so I have known some genuinely nice guys who can't seem to get dates. In fact, that description fits a fair number of my closest friends. But you know what? Absolutely none of them, to my knowledge, have trouble getting dates because they're too nice.

I know one or two people who really need to get this tattooed in reverse lettering on their foreheads. In particular, one person I'm thinking of who rants and raves about how women don't want nice guys, when the real issue is his lack of confidence and negative attitude, and the bitterness about how all women make horrible choices of partner (because they don't choose him) really doesn't help his image...

[hitchhiker.livejournal.com]

That's one thing I've always been glad of, actually - I may not have had any dates, but I never deluded myself as to why, and thus didn't feel sorry for myself. I mean, yeah, I was mildly bummed about being dateless, but it'd have been depressing to think that I was Not Wanted because I was Too Nice.

[secretagentmoof]

I have problems getting dates (hell, I haven't been laid in about a year), but I know damn well that's because of two things:

• I'm real picky - I want to actually like said people.
  
• Few of the people I'd want to date/snog/etc live in the area, and it's just too draining for me to travel over about twenty minutes.
  

(It doesn't help at all that I'm severely introverted, have interesting image and mental health issues, etc - but they're subsidiary.)

[flwyd.livejournal.com]

A non-nice girl and a nice guy doesn't seem like a particularly good relationship option in general. It seems like there'd be a good chance the girl would use and then dump the guy, and then the complaint wouldn't be "why can't nice guys get dates?" but rather "why does everyone a nice guy dates suck?"

The solution, of course, is for life to be more like Amelie.

[anghouedd.livejournal.com]

I've been thinking this for a while now, but you summed it up perfectly.

[ladytabitha.livejournal.com]

Popping in via deyo... friend moominmolly made a great point:

I think that people who complain that Chicks Only Dig Nice Guys are explicitly playing with this dual meaning -- they don't get attention because they're pushovers, i.e. "nice", and then they complain that women don't like them because they're friendly, i.e. "nice". It's a dirty trap, and I've always found it manipulative. This is what I was trying to clarify above, by saying that "nice" had many different components.