Another take on the "nice guy" conundrum
Jul. 6th, 2005 10:20 pm![[personal profile]](https://www.dreamwidth.org/img/silk/identity/user.png)
A comment (and addendum) I posted elsewhere--fortunately not a propos of anything in my life at the moment, but I've been chewing on it for a while:
Dan Savage had some scathing things to say once to a disabled guy who wrote in complaining that he couldn't get chicks--mainly because, as Dan pointed out, he was only looking for "hot" chicks and didn't seem to have considered dating disabled women for a moment. I've since been convinced that what all those guys who complain that women won't date them because they're "too nice" really mean is that beautiful, bitchy women won't date them. Maybe if they actually went looking for nice girls--and bothered to include shy girls, plain girls, and nerdy girls in that pool--they'd have better luck finding a few who genuinely like nice guys.
(Okay, so I have known some genuinely nice guys who can't seem to get dates. In fact, that description fits a fair number of my closest friends. But you know what? Absolutely none of them, to my knowledge, have trouble getting dates because they're too nice. Some of them have self-confidence issues, and some of them are just nerds surrounded by too few nerd-loving women, but niceness is definitely not what holds them back.)
Dan Savage had some scathing things to say once to a disabled guy who wrote in complaining that he couldn't get chicks--mainly because, as Dan pointed out, he was only looking for "hot" chicks and didn't seem to have considered dating disabled women for a moment. I've since been convinced that what all those guys who complain that women won't date them because they're "too nice" really mean is that beautiful, bitchy women won't date them. Maybe if they actually went looking for nice girls--and bothered to include shy girls, plain girls, and nerdy girls in that pool--they'd have better luck finding a few who genuinely like nice guys.
(Okay, so I have known some genuinely nice guys who can't seem to get dates. In fact, that description fits a fair number of my closest friends. But you know what? Absolutely none of them, to my knowledge, have trouble getting dates because they're too nice. Some of them have self-confidence issues, and some of them are just nerds surrounded by too few nerd-loving women, but niceness is definitely not what holds them back.)
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Date: 2005-07-07 05:28 am (UTC)"Nice" is sometimes conflated with "non-assertive." Guys who are not assertive tend to not ask, or to mistake subtle encouragements.
Also, the "I couldn't date you, you're too nice," or it's close equivalents, is often used as a gentle let-down in place of other, possibly harsher reasons. Telling someone he's too nice is easier than saying he's not attractive or too nerdy or whatever. Sort of like saying someone has a nice personality rather than saying that they are plain.
Taken together, this creates the illusion that nice = dateless, when I think the reality is more complex.
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Date: 2005-07-07 05:42 am (UTC)I've ranted on this topic for years. You're actually the only other person I've seen discuss it.
When I was in college lots of my friends complained how they didn't get dates because they were "nice guys" and "all the girls go for jerks". When they said "all the girls" they really meant all the hot women who wore provocative clothing. They would never consider dating the shy girl in the corner. The non-flashy girl. The nice girl. They were always fixated on a handful of women who were the center of lots of other guys attention as well.
The other thing being a "nice guy" who doesn't get dates means, is having a low self confidence, which is rarely attractive. Particularly to the flashy girls. And usually they present no interesting personality. They're just nice, and kind of dull. Women don't want jerks, but most do want someone exciting. So do guys.
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Date: 2005-07-07 05:46 am (UTC)Maybe it goes down to schema: we learn things from watching, and we learn how to date by watching movies and television, and mostly from people older than ourselves. Regardless, we seem to fall into the trap that a guy is expected to make the first move, and women are supposed to attract a man.
I'm not making value judgements on this, just saying that it happens. If I'm right, it's probably a problem because the situation encourages aggressiveness and sexism (the schema is very close to competing for a resource, and I can safely say that human beings should not be treated as such) and screws with our ability to relate to each other. The "nice guy" is often a person who is too respectful of space and boundaries to take a chance at an unwanted advance... he's not going to attempt to assert his presence on a female. Which get's into a whole other slew of moral dilemnas, because if that's the schema going on in the Nice Guy's head, he's kind of bought into the "women as resources" concept.
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Date: 2005-07-07 05:48 am (UTC)(I have thoughts about the nice guy thing but I'm not feeling coherent enough to express them.)
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Date: 2005-07-07 06:38 am (UTC)And that's all I have to say on this matter, because the last time I was in this conversation, a few days later someone killed himself, and it's made me kind of shy of discussing what can be a terribly painful topic with people I don't know well over the internet.
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Date: 2005-07-07 08:54 am (UTC)Neither one particularly puts themselves forward, but they would both have no real problem saying "hey, wanna go out for coffee?" to a nice girl. I'm sure they have, in several cases. However, B once told me that he was the token guy organizing a PG-13 strip show benefiting a cause he's close to -- all the other people were female volunteers in the cause, most of them the ones who would be stripping down to lingerie. And I asked him, "Wow, how did you get such a tasty job?"
He said that one of the girls told him, "We wanted you to coordinate this, because we all feel safe around you."
He gives off a few effeminate vibes, but I know that he is not gay. (Neither is A, the other guy.) Yet both of them seem to radiate the "brotherly" vibe, the one that says you're safe with me, I won't grope you, and I understand your feelings... which means that attractive women who are used to being hassled will want them at their back because they won't have to worry about harassment from that direction, and the less classically-attractive "nice girls" feel like they can keep the guy as a confidant because he understands how they feel, almost treating him like one of the girls. Neither set considers the guy sexy, because he fits into this brotherly role. (Though I've harbored a quiet crush on B for years, as he's physically my type even if we're too similar to get along in a relationship. I'd ask him out if we were more compatible.)
A is clean and relatively fit, witty, very intelligent, has a good job, and while somewhat shy can still put himself forward when he wishes. He had one girlfriend in college, and I think he's had one or two dates in recent years, but that's all... and knowing him, he dislikes fast women. He's over thirty. All I can figure is that it's the "nice" vibe with a vengeance.
Lots of things working against sensitive guys. Not all of them are correctable by clue-stick.
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Date: 2005-07-07 12:06 pm (UTC)Yes, yes, yes, yes!
Mostly, I run into the self-confidence issues ones, but yes!
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Date: 2005-07-07 02:53 pm (UTC)no subject
Date: 2005-07-07 04:24 pm (UTC)I don't much give a damn about how "nice" someone is. I care about how well they communicate, and I notice that it is usually brains that get my motor running.
And, fwiw, the guys that I am dating include one I unambiguously pursued and two that I think were fairly mutual. (but I don't think anyone ever thought I was the girly sort, and despite having a dance card that makes me feel like a HBB, I hardly think I'm what is conventionally thought of as a HBB).
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Date: 2005-07-07 04:49 pm (UTC)I know one or two people who really need to get this tattooed in reverse lettering on their foreheads. In particular, one person I'm thinking of who rants and raves about how women don't want nice guys, when the real issue is his lack of confidence and negative attitude, and the bitterness about how all women make horrible choices of partner (because they don't choose him) really doesn't help his image...
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Date: 2005-07-07 04:57 pm (UTC)no subject
Date: 2005-07-07 11:14 pm (UTC)(It doesn't help at all that I'm severely introverted, have interesting image and mental health issues, etc - but they're subsidiary.)
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Date: 2005-07-07 11:32 pm (UTC)The solution, of course, is for life to be more like Amelie.
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Date: 2005-08-18 09:21 pm (UTC)(no subject)
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Date: 2005-08-25 05:21 pm (UTC)I think that people who complain that Chicks Only Dig Nice Guys are explicitly playing with this dual meaning -- they don't get attention because they're pushovers, i.e. "nice", and then they complain that women don't like them because they're friendly, i.e. "nice". It's a dirty trap, and I've always found it manipulative. This is what I was trying to clarify above, by saying that "nice" had many different components.
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