Questions of etiquette

[vvvexation]

A while ago, I stuck my head into one of those periodic community discussions of how and when one ought to reply to LJ comments, and found myself more annoyed than I'd expected. Now, I personally don't see the point of replying when one has nothing to say, but I understand that a lot of people feel differently. I'm fine with that; it's no skin off my nose if I occasionally interact with people whose commenting habits are different from mine--but apparently there are some folks out there who do think it's a problem, and this one in particular really touched a nerve with me:

[...] I think etiquette, in general, is being polite, and either you're brought up to be polite in all aspects of your life, which would include your activity online, or you're not. I see it as an extension of face to face etiquette. Someone is sitting at a computer reading what I've written, and is taking the time to 'talk' to me about what I've written. I think it's rude to ignore that person. So I reply. The only hard part, for me, is knowing when the conversation is over.

I do find that I take offense when I comment in other people's journals and they don't reply to me. I try to figure out what it will take to get them to reply, not always consciously. And if I consistently offer support or encouragement, or try to relate some commonality, and never get a reply, I will stop commenting, and if I don't care enough for the journal, in general, I drop it.

I think if we leave the comments enabled, it means we welcome them, and not to reply seems rude, to me, but that is because I was raised to be polite and responsive to people, to say 'please' and 'thank you', etc. It's just human kindness, and that extends to the world of the Interweb, and LJ.

Well, of course she's free to behave as she likes, but I still felt I had to say this:

One thing you seem to be overlooking is that "polite" is not a Boolean value. People are not raised to either be polite or not be polite; rather, they are raised with an infinite variety of ideas about which collections of behaviors are polite and which are not. Someone who doesn't have the exact same prescribed set of polite behaviors that you do is not necessarily lacking in "human kindness"--which in any case is a separate thing from politeness. (Would you call someone with poor table manners unkind?)

You seem, in fact, to have a circular definition of polite behavior: "I think behavior X is rude, but that's because I was raised to be polite"? No, you think behavior X is rude because you were raised to be polite and you were raised to think that behavior X is not polite. Someone else, however, might not have been raised to think that behavior X is rude, and yet might still have been raised to "be polite," by whatever means they define the term. To assume that anyone who does X must not have been raised right is to assume that the definition of politeness you grew up with is the only valid one.

I see far too many people living their lives on the basis of that assumption, and severely disliking otherwise very likable people as a result, and it frustrates me so much; if only people would listen to each other's reasoning, try harder to accept goodwill even when it isn't displayed with the "proper" sort of action, and most importantly be forthright about what kind of behavior they want from other people rather than expecting everyone to live up to their standards without having been told what those standards are! The problem with standards of politeness is that too many people don't realize their own standards aren't universal, and so just assume everyone who doesn't meet them isn't worth their time, rather than actually communicating with others and trying to figure out where their standards diverge and how their actions really should be interpreted.

Okay, so I'll admit there does have to be some more or less universal standard of acceptable behavior in order for any large number of people to get along at all. But the idea that politeness is an either/or thing and that someone who commits one particular breach of etiquette must be lacking in all social graces? Excuse me while I scream. Do some people ever comprehend the idea that their opinions are not objectively true?

(And yes, I have had much more unpleasant dealings with people like this in the past--why do you ask? Someday, when my fists unclench, I might even vent about them.)

Comments

[tenacious-snail.livejournal.com]

politeness is clearly not boolean, and while it wouldn't have occurred to me to language it that way, I think that is very lovely.

I think that there are a range of behaviors that I see as polite or rude, and some of that is intent. From some people "fuck you, quit whining" is a way to express affection and support. I don't think that all LJ comments require "thank you".

If you and I were at a party, and I had a plate of strawberries and offered you one, I'd sorta expect you to say "thank you", but if you smiled at me or said "these are yummy" or even "hey, should I get us some nutella to go with them", I'd feel like I'd been adequately appreciated or acknowledged. OTOH, if I drove across town at 4 am to rescue you when your car had broken down, I'd want some higher level of thanks.

I'm okay with a range of "what would be the polite thing to do in these situations", but I do have an expectation that one requires something more and the other requires something less. (I'm also someone who would probably, if I didn't get anything in the way of thanks or appreciation in the broken-down-car example, would probably check in with a mutual friend, in case I'd missed something-- like you'd sent me a note, but accidentally sent it to your old address, since you used to live on my street. I certainly wouldn't jump to the conclusion that you're rude, and therefore need to be castigated.)

[vvvexation.livejournal.com]

*nod* Agreed, with just about all of that. And conversely, if you drove across town for me at 4 in the morning I'd thank you profusely--but not because my parents or anyone else implanted a little formula in my head that says "when people do nice things for you, you thank them." Rather, it would be because I genuinely did appreciate what you were doing, and furthermore thought that you would appreciate knowing that.

(Admittedly, it didn't always use to occur to me to verbalize my appreciation for things, for the same reasons it often doesn't occur to me to verbalize, period--but I'm working on that. Interestingly enough, the "it would be a good idea to thank this person" thought process, although it's gotten to be less of a conscious effort over time, is similar to the thought process that lately prods me to utter compliments out loud instead of keeping them to myself.)

[tenacious-snail.livejournal.com]

I think I am better at verbalizing my appreciations and compliments for sweeties than I am for friends or acquaintances. But it would probably make me and other people feel better and be happier if I were to do it more.

I think some of it is about reinforcing behaviors we value and appreciate.

And having had my attention turned to this, let me say that I've gotten some favorable responses from the now-mine, formerly-yours piss off the religious reich T shirt. Thanks for making that possible *and* thanks for being the sort of person who would buy and wear it to begin with. I wore it to church, on a day I had AKD with me, and ended up discussing the fact that I date both her mom (http://www.livejournal.com/userinfo.bml?user=dawnd) and dad (http://www.livejournal.com/userinfo.bml?user=akienm). Clearly, the sort of church whose religious beliefs that aren't reich-approved.

[vvvexation.livejournal.com]

Oh, definitely there's a per-person factor.

I have to admit, though, that being thanked sometimes makes me a little uncomfortable, in (I think) the same way compliments often do. For instance, being thanked for selling something, which didn't feel to me like I was doing anyone a favor per se, or being thanked for being the kind of person I am, which is something I didn't really have a choice about as far as I can tell. If I think about it for a minute I can parse the second as a compliment and the first as the same kind of thanks one would give someone with whom one had just completed a business transaction, but my initial reaction is "ack, whence this gratitude?"

[mactavish.livejournal.com]

Sometimes it's hard, without knowing someone well, to know how useful compliments will be, or how much they appreciate thanks for their thoughtfulness. But I like erring on the side of caution and expressing appreciation or complimentary thoughts or gratitude verbally unless I get the sense I shouldn't.

[mactavish.livejournal.com]

To language it that way . . . *grin*

:)

Some of the parents whose kids I teach are surprised that the general expectation at our school isn't that the kids say "please" before they ask for something, it's that they ask in a friendly tone. We're not that persnickety about it, but if, say, Sarah says, "Give me those scissors!" in a demanding tone, I might say, "Can you ask for those in a friendlier way?" (Towards the end of the year, I can elicit the same response by raising my eyebrows. ;) )

I'd rather, "Could you open this for me?" in a friendly tone than "Open this . . . please" in a demanding tone.

[tenacious-snail.livejournal.com]

oooh! I really like that. Yay!

[vvvexation.livejournal.com]

*nodnod* Sai and I get hung up on that at times.