Questions of etiquette

[vvvexation]

A while ago, I stuck my head into one of those periodic community discussions of how and when one ought to reply to LJ comments, and found myself more annoyed than I'd expected. Now, I personally don't see the point of replying when one has nothing to say, but I understand that a lot of people feel differently. I'm fine with that; it's no skin off my nose if I occasionally interact with people whose commenting habits are different from mine--but apparently there are some folks out there who do think it's a problem, and this one in particular really touched a nerve with me:

[...] I think etiquette, in general, is being polite, and either you're brought up to be polite in all aspects of your life, which would include your activity online, or you're not. I see it as an extension of face to face etiquette. Someone is sitting at a computer reading what I've written, and is taking the time to 'talk' to me about what I've written. I think it's rude to ignore that person. So I reply. The only hard part, for me, is knowing when the conversation is over.

I do find that I take offense when I comment in other people's journals and they don't reply to me. I try to figure out what it will take to get them to reply, not always consciously. And if I consistently offer support or encouragement, or try to relate some commonality, and never get a reply, I will stop commenting, and if I don't care enough for the journal, in general, I drop it.

I think if we leave the comments enabled, it means we welcome them, and not to reply seems rude, to me, but that is because I was raised to be polite and responsive to people, to say 'please' and 'thank you', etc. It's just human kindness, and that extends to the world of the Interweb, and LJ.

Well, of course she's free to behave as she likes, but I still felt I had to say this:

One thing you seem to be overlooking is that "polite" is not a Boolean value. People are not raised to either be polite or not be polite; rather, they are raised with an infinite variety of ideas about which collections of behaviors are polite and which are not. Someone who doesn't have the exact same prescribed set of polite behaviors that you do is not necessarily lacking in "human kindness"--which in any case is a separate thing from politeness. (Would you call someone with poor table manners unkind?)

You seem, in fact, to have a circular definition of polite behavior: "I think behavior X is rude, but that's because I was raised to be polite"? No, you think behavior X is rude because you were raised to be polite and you were raised to think that behavior X is not polite. Someone else, however, might not have been raised to think that behavior X is rude, and yet might still have been raised to "be polite," by whatever means they define the term. To assume that anyone who does X must not have been raised right is to assume that the definition of politeness you grew up with is the only valid one.

I see far too many people living their lives on the basis of that assumption, and severely disliking otherwise very likable people as a result, and it frustrates me so much; if only people would listen to each other's reasoning, try harder to accept goodwill even when it isn't displayed with the "proper" sort of action, and most importantly be forthright about what kind of behavior they want from other people rather than expecting everyone to live up to their standards without having been told what those standards are! The problem with standards of politeness is that too many people don't realize their own standards aren't universal, and so just assume everyone who doesn't meet them isn't worth their time, rather than actually communicating with others and trying to figure out where their standards diverge and how their actions really should be interpreted.

Okay, so I'll admit there does have to be some more or less universal standard of acceptable behavior in order for any large number of people to get along at all. But the idea that politeness is an either/or thing and that someone who commits one particular breach of etiquette must be lacking in all social graces? Excuse me while I scream. Do some people ever comprehend the idea that their opinions are not objectively true?

(And yes, I have had much more unpleasant dealings with people like this in the past--why do you ask? Someday, when my fists unclench, I might even vent about them.)

Comments

[snowy-owlet.livejournal.com]

Well, *I* think it's so impolite not to know that everything is either black or white! Shades of grey are so rude!

[cjsmith.livejournal.com]

The belief that politeness is a Boolean is its own punishment: people with that belief live in their own self-created hells wherein they are surrounded by "rude people".

[vvvexation.livejournal.com]

Which would be just fine, if only they didn't also do things like, say, deny loans to "rude people."

[japlady.livejournal.com]

Well yes, but thats where kissing up skills are required, such as ones used with police who pull you over, etc.

The whole recognizing a big fish in a small pound and deciding if the ego of this particular individual needs to be massaged or not in order for you to get what you need from them during that limited interaction.

I consider it an insult to people in my social circle to have to treat them that way.

[cjsmith.livejournal.com]

There is that. When I am Queen, people who are that far out of touch with reality will be incapable of holding a job -- any job, not just "loan officer". But I suspect it'll be a while before I am Queen!

[somebodyelse.livejournal.com]

Maybe we should start a petition to get you elected Queen. You seem to have a lot of good ideas. :)

(That'd be almost as cool as Napolean III getting himself elected emperor...)

[cjsmith.livejournal.com]

*chuckle* I better keep track of my campaign promises, then! :-)

[hitchhiker.livejournal.com]

I'd vote for you!!

um

well

nevermind, then :)

[capnkjb.livejournal.com]

Very nice.

[japlady.livejournal.com]

I think the general concensus about me is I was not infact raised with an eye to my politeness, it wasn't something my parents have a value about (and in fact in some responces it was something they didn't think all that highly of when it conflicted with honesty and openess and directness) and my dad who is somewhat polite (he's british) didn't learn it at home at all (his siblings are far less polite than he is, they're more working class brits, he's more upper class as a result of his education -- his siblings didn't go past highschool and one left school at age 13 to go to work).

Me I respond if I think there's something to add, otherwise its just more chatter and one more thing that a person has to read and thats time from their day. So if someone responds to me, but its not something that I feel requires a responce in return than I don't.

[vvvexation.livejournal.com]

Somewhat similar here: my parents valued politeness, but didn't raise me to "be polite" so much as to "be kind and considerate," and I still think most of what people call politeness (or at least most of what deserves to be called politeness) is just an extension of that. But then again, you get people who think you're both impolite and inconsiderate if you don't do what they want, instead of thinking that you might be trying to be considerate in a different way. Feh.

[japlady.livejournal.com]

yah, thats a hole I continually fall into. What is the definition of kind and considerate? I was raised with the "your not doing anyone any favors" by not telling them the truth or not calling them on their shit, that its like a visit to the doctor: it may hurt but in the long run you're doing them a favor. A lot of folks don't particularly appreciate that aspect of my personality, others however value it deeply.

[deedeebythebay.livejournal.com]

The difference, in my experience, comes from the quality of relationship you have with someone. I might see where direct honesty would be of value but saying anything in that vein to someone I don't have a relationship with is more likley to be ignore and I am more likely to be viewed as having poor social skills and not knowing when it is appropriate to put in my ten cents worth or not. I appreciate being called on my shit by people I am close to because they know me, know my motivations, know my intentions and are usually right on target. And, I appreciate that they are my friends and are willing to call me on my shit. Someone I barely know or have only a passing acquaintance might be able to do so if done appropriately.....but if it is done with brashness and know-it-all-ness......as if they know my experiences, know exactly what I'm up to......they are less likely to be received with respect and attention. Even if I do give them a polite but noncommittal response.

[japlady.livejournal.com]

I think thats cultural too, as in how much are you from a "it takes a villiage culture" versus, "people should mind their own business culture." In the latter it is only your inner circle that can call you on your shit, in the former complete strangers will comment and its considered being in good relationship with the folks around you (and if they Don't comment its a sign that they really don't think your worth the effort).

[deedeebythebay.livejournal.com]

I agree with this to a point.....if it is for my physical safety or the safety of my community at large or the environment, 'hey, don't put oil down that drain it kills the fish', that sort of thing, then yes, we build a larger community that is worldwide....anyone who knows me that is part of the large goal of my life. When I talk of close friends, I don't just mean my inner circle, which might total 10 people....I talk of the 30 or more who know me and know me well enough to be able to do so....it is when you get to people who reach beyond that that things need to be handled a little more with tact.

And maybe that's it. Tact and tone of voice. An individual might have a heart of gold but a response that is uncaring in how it cuts just so it can be honest.....there's too much of that in this world....my vision of building that village that extends to world community....is done with gentleness and care and only escalates as necessary.

I don't walk up to my nine year old and slap her hand if she's doing something I think is unsafe/unhealthy for her (unless it is the only way to avoid imminent disaster), I talk gently, I set guidelines, I discuss, and we move forward. My kids may not be everyone's version of the perfectly well behaved kids but they are responsive to the relationship we have and respectful of the times I call them on their shit.

I don't intend on treating people in my world as if they are my children but if we all found ways to be gentler in our approach perhaps our world would be a bit gentler as well.

My perception and experience of course.

[lintqueen.livejournal.com]

"And maybe that's it. Tact and tone of voice. "

Ding! Ding! That *is* it, IMHO. There's a *big* difference in my mind between saying in a nice way "Gosh, I don't think I'd be comfortable wearing that brightly colored floral dress to the funeral" and saying buntly "You can't wear that." One is subtle and *allows the person a graceful exit*, while the other makes them wrong.

I also think the etiquette of response is not a cut-and-dried thing. I try to read into the person's intent: is she/he looking for reassurance/response/opinion or is this a "I saw the funniest thing today and I have to write it down." In addition, there's the IRL factor... I'm much more likely to comment when I know someone and I'm building a relationship (as opposed to a one-off), she said, whilst making a one-off commment

Etiquette, IMHO, is not about "rules" as much as it's about making someone else comfortable and, as much as humanly possible making things smoother between people. (There's a great Heinlein quote about that, but can't put my finger on it at the moment.)

My $.02, of course, YMMV.

[japlady.livejournal.com]

I agree. I generally suck at this in a really big way.

I have this one friend back in Chicago where I'll say something and have the whole room take offence, then she will repeat exactly the same thoughts with a slightly different tone and a barely noticable shift of words and the same room will congradulate her for her depth... at which point she would point out they had just condemned me for saying the same thing a minute ago.

Recently I got to know a woman who would insult people hard core to their faces but with an ironic tone (even though she was saying exactly what she thought) only to have them only laugh and tell her how much they love her.

Its like theater I guess, everything is in the delivery and most folks can't seem to see past that -- which for my part I have always pointed out was why Hitler made it to the head of German government.

[snowy-owlet.livejournal.com]

you get people who think you're both impolite and inconsiderate if you don't do what they want

I used to know one of those. She practically grew up in a barn, and I grew up with a thorough grounding in Southern manners, so there was just NO WAY I could ever do anything right.

She still maintains that I am a horrible person.

[deyo.livejournal.com]

polite in all aspects of your life, which would include your activity online

This might go far to explain why I comment rarely, and reply less. One product of my upbringing could be simplified to, "Never speak".

Ceci n'est pas une reply

[daltong.livejournal.com]

One product of my upbringing could be simplified to, "Never speak".

I'd reply to this, except that I was taught the same thing.

[vvvexation.livejournal.com]

Remind me to inquire further about this in person.

[tenacious-snail.livejournal.com]

politeness is clearly not boolean, and while it wouldn't have occurred to me to language it that way, I think that is very lovely.

I think that there are a range of behaviors that I see as polite or rude, and some of that is intent. From some people "fuck you, quit whining" is a way to express affection and support. I don't think that all LJ comments require "thank you".

If you and I were at a party, and I had a plate of strawberries and offered you one, I'd sorta expect you to say "thank you", but if you smiled at me or said "these are yummy" or even "hey, should I get us some nutella to go with them", I'd feel like I'd been adequately appreciated or acknowledged. OTOH, if I drove across town at 4 am to rescue you when your car had broken down, I'd want some higher level of thanks.

I'm okay with a range of "what would be the polite thing to do in these situations", but I do have an expectation that one requires something more and the other requires something less. (I'm also someone who would probably, if I didn't get anything in the way of thanks or appreciation in the broken-down-car example, would probably check in with a mutual friend, in case I'd missed something-- like you'd sent me a note, but accidentally sent it to your old address, since you used to live on my street. I certainly wouldn't jump to the conclusion that you're rude, and therefore need to be castigated.)

[vvvexation.livejournal.com]

*nod* Agreed, with just about all of that. And conversely, if you drove across town for me at 4 in the morning I'd thank you profusely--but not because my parents or anyone else implanted a little formula in my head that says "when people do nice things for you, you thank them." Rather, it would be because I genuinely did appreciate what you were doing, and furthermore thought that you would appreciate knowing that.

(Admittedly, it didn't always use to occur to me to verbalize my appreciation for things, for the same reasons it often doesn't occur to me to verbalize, period--but I'm working on that. Interestingly enough, the "it would be a good idea to thank this person" thought process, although it's gotten to be less of a conscious effort over time, is similar to the thought process that lately prods me to utter compliments out loud instead of keeping them to myself.)

[tenacious-snail.livejournal.com]

I think I am better at verbalizing my appreciations and compliments for sweeties than I am for friends or acquaintances. But it would probably make me and other people feel better and be happier if I were to do it more.

I think some of it is about reinforcing behaviors we value and appreciate.

And having had my attention turned to this, let me say that I've gotten some favorable responses from the now-mine, formerly-yours piss off the religious reich T shirt. Thanks for making that possible *and* thanks for being the sort of person who would buy and wear it to begin with. I wore it to church, on a day I had AKD with me, and ended up discussing the fact that I date both her mom (http://www.livejournal.com/userinfo.bml?user=dawnd) and dad (http://www.livejournal.com/userinfo.bml?user=akienm). Clearly, the sort of church whose religious beliefs that aren't reich-approved.

[vvvexation.livejournal.com]

Oh, definitely there's a per-person factor.

I have to admit, though, that being thanked sometimes makes me a little uncomfortable, in (I think) the same way compliments often do. For instance, being thanked for selling something, which didn't feel to me like I was doing anyone a favor per se, or being thanked for being the kind of person I am, which is something I didn't really have a choice about as far as I can tell. If I think about it for a minute I can parse the second as a compliment and the first as the same kind of thanks one would give someone with whom one had just completed a business transaction, but my initial reaction is "ack, whence this gratitude?"

[mactavish.livejournal.com]

Sometimes it's hard, without knowing someone well, to know how useful compliments will be, or how much they appreciate thanks for their thoughtfulness. But I like erring on the side of caution and expressing appreciation or complimentary thoughts or gratitude verbally unless I get the sense I shouldn't.

[mactavish.livejournal.com]

To language it that way . . . *grin*

:)

Some of the parents whose kids I teach are surprised that the general expectation at our school isn't that the kids say "please" before they ask for something, it's that they ask in a friendly tone. We're not that persnickety about it, but if, say, Sarah says, "Give me those scissors!" in a demanding tone, I might say, "Can you ask for those in a friendlier way?" (Towards the end of the year, I can elicit the same response by raising my eyebrows. ;) )

I'd rather, "Could you open this for me?" in a friendly tone than "Open this . . . please" in a demanding tone.

[tenacious-snail.livejournal.com]

oooh! I really like that. Yay!

[vvvexation.livejournal.com]

*nodnod* Sai and I get hung up on that at times.

[haggis-bagpipes.livejournal.com]

I find it mildly amusing that you preach open-mindedness while quibbling a teensy detail.

[vvvexation.livejournal.com]

Could you elaborate? I'm not sure what about this is teensy.

[haggis-bagpipes.livejournal.com]

teensy = Small, petty, minor detail, hardly world-shattering, barely worth getting angry about. You hardly need to get so angry because of someone else's definition of 'politeness' not quite being in accordance with your own.

[vvvexation.livejournal.com]

No, you've missed the entire point.

My problem, as I repeatedly stated, is not that her definitions are not in accordance with my own, but that she thinks her definitions are the only correct ones--she is the one who would presumably have a problem with my definitions. And I do not think that is a minor detail; it represents a closed-minded worldview which, taken as a whole, ought to make anyone angry. You yourself certainly don't seem to think closed-mindedness isn't worth getting upset about, since you've taken the trouble to accuse me of being hypocritical about it.

[haggis-bagpipes.livejournal.com]

You could always ignore people like this rather than getting upset about their views which, close-minded or not, don't actually collide with your own in any real way. Practice this by not replying to this comment.

[vvvexation.livejournal.com]

You could have done the same thing by not replying to my original post (which certainly was not directed at you as this comment of yours was directed at me). Since you haven't chosen to ignore me, I see no reason to ignore you, and I furthermore find your attempt to take what you seem to perceive as some kind of moral high ground laughably childish, as is the tone of most of your comments throughout this thread. I would have a great deal more respect for you at this point if you showed any willingness to listen to anything I say, but instead you only seem to want to lecture me.

In response to the rest of your comment, I refer you once more to my original post, at the end of which I state that the views of people like this have in fact collided with my own in very real ways in the past. To elaborate further, those have been some of the most painful and humiliating experiences of my life, and if I stand any chance of being able to keep someone else from inflicting that kind of unhappiness on others, I consider myself well justified in trying.

Are you ready to offer any more arguments based on selective hearing of the things I've said? Why not just ignore the entire post while you're at it?

[haggis-bagpipes.livejournal.com]

Alright, alright, I've just been trolling you to see how long you'd keep on arguing given no real contribution from my side...the point I am actually making is that you're a very easily needled person.

You make a lot of very good points in your response, but I can't help feeling that your point only touches on the point the original person was making: she (at least I assume it was a she) was saying "I hate it when people don't reply to every little thing I post online" (revealing themselves to be very insecure) and using perceived lack of other people's politeness as a way to justify that the fault is in other people and and not in herself.

You criticised their definition of politeness because the subject of politeness and close-mindedness has been an issue for you in the past. So I rather mischievously) decided to troll you and see how long you'd carry on a one-sided argument.

I confess this wasn't a very kind thing for me to do, and having had some time to think over the morals of it over the last few days (during which I've been on holiday), I'd like to apologise.

[vvvexation.livejournal.com]

Odd that you didn't feel like "apologizing" two or three hours ago, but okay. Actually, I should congratulate you--you did a great job of convincing me you were incredibly obtuse in addition to being immature. (Even if I'm not terribly convinced that the fact that someone can be needled by a troll proves anything more about them than it does about the troll, and also not certain I see the connection you're trying to draw between my criticism and your particular method of trolling.)

You've got a good point about the OP's motivations. Interestingly enough, though, I think it's in fact the case that everyone I've seen copping the "other people are objectively rude" attitude was indeed using it as a cover for their own wants in that same way--"I want everyone to act like this, but the only way I can justify asking them to is if I assert that it's the Only Right Way to act." I actually noticed that quite a while ago, and it was silly of me to overlook it in this case. It still doesn't make people like that any easier to deal with, though--if anything, harder, because they know they're asserting falsehoods and have a personal stake in not admitting it.

Come to think of it, I suspect the idea of "politeness" as a whole is probably based on that same "I need to use tricks to get what I want because it's somehow not okay to just ask for it" mentality, on some level. Perhaps that's why I set so little store by politeness-for-its-own-sake.

[daltong.livejournal.com]

I like how you put that. It clarifies something I've been thinking about.

FWIW, I don't reply to some comments on my posts, and I never expect a reply to what I write (including this). *shrug* I figure if I write something, and it's useful to someone, then that's great--I don't need to know about it. I fling my thoughts into cyberspace and they're not boomerang-shaped.

[ravenslost.livejournal.com]

Do some people ever comprehend the idea that their opinions are not objectively true?

I'd like to think that most people eventually understand this. I'd also like many of them to hurry it up a little with that bit of enlightenment.

[rose42dance.livejournal.com]

Oh, good lord, I am afraid to even look at your thirty comments, but I'll add mine:

I LOVE your response. That is the second time this week in my life that someone has mentioned boolean math metaphorically, and I get it. No, I won't be offended if you do not respond to my comment - it is simply an added supportive cheer to what you have already said.

[vvvexation.livejournal.com]

Heh, thanks. You needn't fear the comments so far; there are a couple of interesting threads but no flamewars and no novel-length posts as yet.